Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 11:43 AM

And the white people seem to have a common story. The poorer ones went to East Detroit. The richer ones went to Warren. Warren is an overcrowded dump now, but I guess it was nicer then. East Detroit changed it's name to Eastpointe and although I've never spent much time there, the one party I went to had guys with confederate Shakespeare on and I've heard from a guy who grew up there that on Halloween kids would patrol the border with Detroit proper wearing KKK get-ups.



The fact is, the Detroiters who lived there in 1967 who don't live there anymore (probably 95% of them or more) left for a simple pragmatic reason: Detroit wasn't safe anymore. Never mind any of the reasons that go into that, or social justice or any other thing. People protect themselves and protect their families and that is about 100000 times as important to them as highbrow concepts of equality or diversity.



So my question is, were the people who left Detroit after the riot bad people or racists? Keep in mind that many of the people who left were blacks who had the money to do so. The suburbs are peppered (no pun intended) with well-educated and intelligent blacks who, so far as I honestly ever saw in my upper-middle-class white high school, had just as many friends if not more than anybody else.



When they describe the lack of diversity as a problem that needs to be solved, or the lack of integration as a problem that needs to be solved, exactly who's chain do they think they're pulling? What individual person acting in their own self-interest moves into a bad neighborhood? What group of voters would tolerate forcible integration or integration subsidies or programs considering what a fiasco anything like that has been in the past?



In short, is there any solution at all?



I kind of doubt it. What do you think?

30,342 13
02/19/2002 11:44 AM

*all starin' and Shakespeare*

aushie 5,580 13
02/19/2002 11:44 AM

Ford, I would like to commend you on your recent usage of the "return" key. It has been both thoughful and successful. Shorter paragraphs have made your posts much more readable.



</serious>





Now I'm going to go wade through that Shakespeare up there. If I'm not back in 5 minutes, send a search party.

Mike Moon, Lieutenant Colonel Fucktard 4,366 14
02/19/2002 11:47 AM

He's talking about jungle bunnies.

Trae (El Diablo es en mi pantelones) 156,785 17
02/19/2002 11:50 AM

Thanks for paraphrasing, Moon Unit

aushie 5,580 13
02/19/2002 11:50 AM

Ok, here's my opinion on what you've written.



No, the people who left weren't bad or racist. They were concerned for their safety.



The only way to have integration in the future is to have education in the present.



How do you get segregated children together, though? That's the big issue. The best way to educate children about integration is not necessarily to bus them for 2 hours a day, and you can't force people to move.



I'd say that having free transportation to a centralized place where there are lots of games, sports, activities, etc. for kids of all colors and backgrounds would be one good answer.



That will require a lot of time and money from the entire community, but if they really want integration, they might be willing to do it.

shoelace414 10,080 13
02/19/2002 11:51 AM

in a riot, you are on your own to protect yourself and you family. I've never been in one, but if you live in a bad neighborhood, the police will still respond if you have a problem. in a riot, you are on your own. it has to be hell.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 11:51 AM

Is this a long story, Ford?

Mike Moon, Lieutenant Colonel Fucktard 4,366 14
02/19/2002 11:52 AM

I'd say that having free transportation to a centralized place where there are lots of games, sports, activities, etc. for kids of all colors and backgrounds would be one good answer.



Like what? Basketball? Hockey? CS!

Dead Robot 67,630 16
02/19/2002 11:53 AM

Here's where I stopped reading:



The explanation you get is that it was a really hot day. That's about all there is to explain it.



All the people you "talked to" about the riot were white, right?



That's like fast forwarding through "Do The Right Thing" to the end and saying Good goolymoogly! A riot just started for no reason at all!"

aushie 5,580 13
02/19/2002 11:54 AM

Double-dutch jump-roping for little black girls, a "graffiti wall" for little black boys, ponies for white girls, and "Stop Sign Beer Bottle Toss From Trucks" for white boys, obviously.

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 11:54 AM

What I mean, Ted, is that I've tried to find out the reason and there isn't any powderkeg event that triggered it, like the riots of recent memory.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 11:59 AM

I think it was caused by Wal-Mart running out of JeriCurl.

The Dirty Vicar 17,446 13
02/19/2002 12:01 PM

You can only lay around on front porches for so long before all that repressed energy and enthusiasm just explodes.

Bust 'Em Up Rodriguez 17,826 13
02/19/2002 12:02 PM

I think the white peoples knew the black people was hot, since they had the fires hoses to shoot them with the waters!

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 12:03 PM

I think the only time Shreveport has been on CNN other than when the President came here on 9/11 was when I was in 7th grade and we had riots (in the black est neighborhood, of course) because a white guy shot a black guy in a crack deal gone bad.



I can absolutely believe that the riots were caused by nothing more than heat and boredom. Poor people will riot at the drop of a hat.



There were numerous lawsuits after our riots against the police chief for not doing enough to stop the rioters and against the police chief for being too forceful in stopping the rioters. I don't know how the suits turned out, but the police chief resigned.



Shreveport also used to have a centralized "activities center" where kids could play baseball, basketball, arcade games (for free), bowling, roller skating, and hang out at a huge snack bar.



Even though there were millions of cops there, I think about 8 kids got killed every night. It didn't even "promote integration" because despite the fact that it was right smack dab in the middle of our biggest middle-class white neighborhood, the only white kids there were the ones selling drugs.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 12:04 PM

Actually, I think it was a white girl who shot a black guy or a white guy that shot a black girl.

Bust 'Em Up Rodriguez 17,826 13
02/19/2002 12:05 PM

Here in SC, race relations are at an all-time low. If a black politician tries to make a law that says that breathing is illegal and you say that's not a good idea, the NAACP jumps all up IN your grill and harasses you.





We need some Detroit police and some fire hoses, QUICK!

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 12:06 PM

When the Shakespeare hits the fan, black people riot.



White people vote.

Sleestack 30,342 13
02/19/2002 12:08 PM

We used to have riots. Now we have Pride Days.



Same thing.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 12:09 PM

When Shreveport started building its magnet schools in 1980 we were fresh into our most recent federal school desegregation order and we hoped that allowing people to choose their schools based on achievement would help.



you can guess what happened.



They built all the top schools in the worst neighborhoods, and they slowly filled up with white kids. All of them are now 85% white (the max allowed by law here) and there is a huge discrepancy between the (mostly white) kids who deserve to be there and the 100% black kids who are only there to keep the government from suing us again.



The "desegs" sit in the back and play craps while the smart kids learn.

Mike Moon, Lieutenant Colonel Fucktard 4,366 14
02/19/2002 12:09 PM

Can't we just send them back to Africa.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 12:11 PM

You cannot legislate tolerance any more than you can legislate intelligence.



No racial problems will ever be solved with laws. None. Ever.



I don't understand why people want to make the rest of society change what it does. If the population wants to segregate itself, what's wrong with that?



I blame the Topeka Board of Education for not hiring better lawyers.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 12:11 PM

If we can't afford to send them back, can we at least afford to send them half way?

Taco Bell 4,366 14
02/19/2002 12:12 PM

or to Canada!

aushie 5,580 13
02/19/2002 12:20 PM

I think you could have a well-regulated activities center. What you described in yours doesn't make me believe that it could never work; it makes me believe that it wasn't regulated properly.



It's something that would require an enormous amount of time and money, though.



To an extent, I'm with you on the "if society wants to segregate itself, let it" argument.



People who talk about integration but would never move into a black neighborhood are just like people who want to ban abortion but would never adopt a baby.

Feeble, Master of Spline Curves 32,400 15
02/19/2002 12:24 PM

Baltimore has had success in this matter. What they do is they target an area, and concentrate on making it safe, and offer tax credits to desirable people (married couples with at least one college graduate, regardless of race) to buy homes there.



It will take decades to restore Detroit to a decent city, but it took decades to make it what it is.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 12:25 PM

I was pretty active in the Appilacian Mountain Club. A few years ago they had this big campaign to try to make the club more diverse. All the covers of the magazines showed people of every color enjoying the outdoors. It reminded me of This Onion article.



We have a diversity committee and all sorts of people are concerned with the fact that the club is 99.9999% white. Even though I have never seen any instances of exclusion in the club (most members are treehugging hippies who don't have a racists bone in their body) the higher-ups seem very concerned with race issues.



Everybody seems to ignore one simple fact: Black people don't seem to like to hike.

The Dirty Vicar 17,446 13
02/19/2002 12:30 PM

Black people hike. They just call it "Going to work".

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 12:31 PM

That's because watermelon patches are relatively flat and chcikens can't fly.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 12:41 PM

It's a good thing Baltimore did that, they almost fell out of the top 5 cities in the country, crime-rate wise.



They're a solid #4 now, with just about twice the national average.



God bless diversity.

Crickette (make the hammering STOP!) 2,472 12
02/19/2002 12:54 PM

Yeah, the neighborhood S's grandparents live in in Baltimore is real nice.



A nasty bar on the corner, prostitutes living next door, and drug deals going down on the corner. And their car was stolen from in front of their house a couple of weeks ago.



It was probably a really nice neighborhood when they moved in 50 years ago.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 12:56 PM

Blatimore required any new development of 50+ units to have at least a certain percentage be affordable to the poorest X percent of the population. It's called their MPDU program. "Moderately Priced Dwelling Unit"



That means if you want to build an apartment complex, you have to always take into account that there will be people in there living in $300 apartments. That basically eliminates the possibility of offering high-end apartments because people that live in $5,000 a month apartments don't want to live in the same building as people paying $300 a month.



Ahh, getting rid of the upper and lower end, and moving everyone into the middle of the curve: a liberal policy-maker's wet dream.

aushie 5,580 13
02/19/2002 12:59 PM

That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.



The main reason I say that is that I would think that sort of thing would only result in people with money moving out of Baltimore, making it a poorer place and ultimately punishing the poor even more.



Good or bad, that's human nature.

Crickette 2,472 12
02/19/2002 01:06 PM

At least there's one good thing I can say about Maine...





It's not exactly a "rich" state, but the crime rate is relatively low, the tv isn't full of ads for credit counselling, and there isn't a pawn shop on every corner.



I've never seen so many pawn shops as when I moved to Durham.

+18Chickens 286,208 61
02/19/2002 01:07 PM

I you want white kids to play with black kids, they should give all the white kids one to play with.





*resists using "as a pet" though is sorely tempted*

+18Chickens 286,208 61
02/19/2002 01:08 PM

I = If

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 01:09 PM

If you want to see poverty, move to MIssissippi.

Mike Moon, Super Cracker 4,366 14
02/19/2002 01:19 PM

or anywhere in Africa.

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 01:22 PM

We had a Rodney King type thing in Detroit, Malice Green. It wasn't as clear cut though, and it wasn't on film.



Now mag-lites come in three sizes, Small, Medium, Large, Malice Green.

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 01:23 PM

The first name Malice is a good example of why people shouldn't get creative with naming their children, especially if they are extremely stupid.

38,986 14
02/19/2002 01:23 PM

Shut yo mouf!

The Dirty Vicar 17,446 13
02/19/2002 01:24 PM

"And these are my seven children, Malice, Lust, Sloth, Envy, Sleepy, Sneezy, and Doc."

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 01:25 PM

Don't forget "Smarmy," my favorite dwarf.

Scooter Brown 19,936 13
02/19/2002 01:27 PM

black people who are friends with white people are sellouts

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 01:31 PM

Why can't somebody in the Defense Department wipe out the ghettos with a small nuke or large conventional wepaons and claim it was an "accident?"

Fronzel Neekburm 15,959 13
02/19/2002 02:26 PM

I think there will be a tendancy to segregate. Everytown has a neighborhood to avoid and almost always it is the black section of twon. Put 1 and 1 together and you have less stress living with your own kind.



There is a guy named Walter Williams. He is a conservative columnist and a few other things. He said he spent most of his life in black neighborhoods(Walt is black), He said as he got older, he moved into white neighborhoods. He was tired of having to chain everything down before he went to bed.



I've notice when you get a group of blacks together, they tend to lose their individuality. At least the ones I work with are like that. Great guys, but when they start to group, it is best to avoid them.

4,888 13
02/19/2002 03:12 PM

Peep.

5,580 13
02/19/2002 03:13 PM

I've notice when you get a group of whites together, they tend to lose their individuality. At least the ones I work with are like that. Great guys, but when they start to group, it is best to avoid them.

Candie Kohrne el Gato Montes 8,640 15
02/19/2002 03:15 PM

The main reason I say that is that I would think that sort of thing would only result in people with money moving out of Baltimore, making it a poorer place and ultimately punishing the poor even more.



I agree with you 100% on this. A lot of the legislation dreamed up by condescending rich people on "behalf" of poor people will hurt them worse in the long run.

Dirk Lately 14,001 13
02/19/2002 03:16 PM

I think Aushie said it: the key is education and economic mobility, not segregation.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 03:17 PM

Education and economic mobility tends to lead to segregation.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 03:17 PM

>A lot of the legislation dreamed up by condescending rich people on "behalf" of poor people will hurt them worse in the long run.



Keep thinking like that and you'll have to stop voting for democrats.

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 03:18 PM

>Education and economic mobility tends to lead to segregation.



That's the ironic truth.

aushie 5,580 13
02/19/2002 03:18 PM

I think Dirk might have meant "desegregation." Didn'tcha, Dirk?

psychaholic, now with gravy! 4,888 13
02/19/2002 03:20 PM

Whoa, Black Dude, you have to be joking. Black dudes lose thier individuality faster that a Xerox.



Here in Detroit, the racist ones tend to be those without jobs.



Or Shakespearety jobs.

Dirk Lately 14,001 13
02/19/2002 03:20 PM

Errata



Of course, by "segregation", I meant "integration".



We regret the error, and apologize for any confusion we may have caused.

Candie Kohrne el Gato Montes 8,640 15
02/19/2002 03:22 PM

Keep thinking like that and you'll have to stop voting for democrats.



I've never voted Democrat in my life. What gives you that impression?

aushie 5,580 13
02/19/2002 03:23 PM

I mean, you can't force integration, and you shouldn't force integration. But you should try to provide as much education as you can to as many people as you can about as many things as you can, including people of other races.



If you get a lot of black kids and a lot of white kids playing together and learning together in some way, I don't see how that will necessarily eventually encourage future segregation.



But if it does, that's what that society wants, and you shouldn't try



ok I'm bored of typing this.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 03:25 PM

Sorry, Candie, didn't mean to accuse you.



I meant if more people started thinking likte that, they'd have to stop voting for democrats.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 03:26 PM

>If you get a lot of black kids and a lot of white kids playing together and learning together in some way, I don't see how that will necessarily eventually encourage future segregation.



Because it's been my experience that the more time I spend with people of other races, the less time I want to spend with people of other races.

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 03:27 PM

I think of society as a synergistic organism that evolved on it's own. And I think of left-wing reformers as people who take a look at that organism and make flippant decisions like "let's hook up the small intestine to the anus, the Shakespeare will get out faster."



Fact is nobody understands how cultures work and many who've tried to reengineer them have created a hideous bloodbath and terrible inequity beyond that which would have existed anyway.



You can't reengineer a system you don't understand, and it's the soaring conceit of most of the far left that their flimsy stereotypes, however well-meaning, describe anything but their own fantasies.

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 03:29 PM

>Because it's been my experience that the more time I spend with people of other races, the less time I want to spend with people of other races.



You've just been hanging out at the wrong racetrack. Try Daytona.

aushie 5,580 13
02/19/2002 03:29 PM

I would generally describe myself as far left, but we're not all masturbatory fantasists, just like not all far right people are chicken Frosters.

aushie 5,580 13
02/19/2002 03:29 PM

Just most, in both cases.

sparkythewonderdog 2,144 12
02/19/2002 03:31 PM

A synergistic organism? Who talks like that?

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 03:35 PM

Fact is nobody understands how cultures work



Cultures are developed over a period of time, and are constantly evolving. Cultures don't "work" per se; but there are many ethnologists who might disagree with that.



>You can't reengineer a system you don't understand



This I agree with. Change can be wrought from within.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 03:36 PM

I sure as hell don't, Sparky.



"Marge... where's that metal thing we use to... dig... food?"

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 03:37 PM

Ms. Sparky, one of these days you'll have to explain your profile to me.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 03:38 PM

Alas, my gastronomic rapacity knows no satiety.

sparkythewonderdog 2,144 12
02/19/2002 03:39 PM

Things to do today:

1. Think outside the box

2. Facilitate a dialogue

3. Synergize my projects

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 03:41 PM

I guess what I'm saying is that people compare socialism and capitalism as if they are competing ideologies. In one sense they are, but the main difference is that capitalism evolved. It started with barter, then gold and other symbolic instruments. Then you started having incorporation with the Dutch and their shipping companies. Then you had stock and stock markets that all happened without regulation.



Those were things that sort of "caught on." They worked so people used them, and a zillion other things people tried didn't work and were forgotten.



So it's not a straight-up comparison at all. I think it's being asked to swallow someone else's assumptions at risk to myself and everybody else to replace a system that built Athens, Rome, London and New York without anybody engineering anything. And the indicators I have seen tell me the people who think they can "fix" it or "reform" it are as full of Shakespeare as they are full of themselves.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 03:42 PM

4) empower strategic niches

5) expedite cutting-edge communities

6) exploit bricks-and-clicks mindshare

sparkythewonderdog 2,144 12
02/19/2002 03:46 PM

Oh man. That's for me - Sparky the Envisioneer. Clickies for you, Nuttybuddy. Someday I will tell you what my profile means.

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 03:47 PM

>replace a system that built Athens, Rome, London and New York without anybody engineering anything



You're talking horseShakespeare again, Ford. You're not going to tell me that the same beliefs and values were present in the builders of all four of those cities. Where's the Temple of Aphrodite in New York?

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 03:48 PM

Trade built all cities. Trade. Trade is capitalism.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 03:49 PM

The Guggenheim.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 03:50 PM

I know tha doesn't make sense, i just like to say "Guggenheim."

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 03:52 PM

Capitalism != culture

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 03:54 PM

I didn't say capitalism equalled culture. I said capitalism drove all cultures.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 03:54 PM

Nobody said it did.



He said the system that built Rome, etc.



Culture doens't build things, money does.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 03:55 PM

I thought the Teamsters did?

postbear 10,158 13
02/19/2002 03:56 PM

well, well.



the board of white people has now justified segregation and proven that crime and poverty are problems only for non-whites.



slowly they drift toward starbucks and order lattes....

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 03:58 PM

Then the homo gave free Shakespeare to everybody and the world was perfect



the end

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 03:58 PM

For our next act, STA will decide which type of flavoring makes sperm taste the best!

postbear 10,158 13
02/19/2002 04:06 PM

i love it when members of this board gets together to perpetuate the status quo and congratulate one another on being white and successful.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 04:07 PM

You flatter me.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 04:32 PM

>congratulate one another on being white and successful.



It's a tough job, but somebody's got to run everything.

Rich (The Compass) 641 12
02/19/2002 04:34 PM

Heh.



How's it going running the country there Timmy? I'm surprised you find time to do it, what with the high demands of your full time job that you're no doubt working at to pay off your mountains of debt from your hard struggle up from poverty.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 04:36 PM

I'm the greatest hero in all of American history.



The sacrifices I have made will inspire other to do great things, but all will pale in comparison.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 04:37 PM

You've inspired me to go eat a Big Mac.

Wakowill 12,056 12
02/19/2002 04:37 PM

Wow, i'd have to say this is one of the most intelligent threads i've ever seen, peppered with a mild dose of wildly racist humor that just amuses me to no end.

Oh, and the only way to allow integration to happen in my humble opinion is to back off and allow it to happen naturally, with an equal footing. No racial assistance in the form of welfare, affirmative action, etc. let competitive nature force minorities to act in their own favor and improve themselves. That way our poor white people and poor black people will live together once and for all without distinction of color or creed, and those with the skills to make it to the top will only be trying to screw the lower class on a basis of economic standing. see what a great world that would be compared to this one? Yes our real problem truly is that two different skin tones aren't found on the same street.

</sarcasm>

Oh, and to go back to the top, Ford has a freaking airplane???

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 04:39 PM

Of course he does, he's white.



Don't you have an airplane?

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 04:39 PM

Don't feel too impressed, it's a Poe airplane.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 04:45 PM

Meaning, he only bought it so he could get some Poe.

Candie Kohrne el Gato Montes 8,640 15
02/19/2002 04:46 PM

Ford's Plane.

Candie Kohrne el Gato Montes 8,640 15
02/19/2002 04:47 PM

Nutbutter, I keel you.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 04:48 PM

I like those gang signs Ford be throwin' !!

Rich (The Compass) 641 12
02/19/2002 04:48 PM

forget the plane, let's see pictures of the Poe.

Rich (The Compass) 641 12
02/19/2002 04:50 PM

oh, nevermind, he's in the picture.

Candie Kohrne el Gato Montes 8,640 15
02/19/2002 04:52 PM

Poe.

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 04:52 PM

Owning a plane, like a lot of things, is more about deciding to do it than anything else. I'm not rich.

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 04:53 PM

Stimpy is a bigass cat.

Candie Kohrne el Gato Montes 8,640 15
02/19/2002 04:53 PM

Poe.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 04:53 PM

I think Ford should create a websIte for his plane.



"ALL YOU PLAYAZ BE THINKING YOU FLY WIT DA CESSNAS AND DA BEECHCRAFT YO. MY PIPER BE SLICKER THAN ALL DAT, DIG?"

Rich (The Compass) 641 12
02/19/2002 04:55 PM

Actually, Candie, I think those are boobies.



But I appreciate the effort.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 04:55 PM

That girl has such an expression of "Thank God I get paid well to do this" on her face.

SU(T) 1,768 12
02/19/2002 04:56 PM

Owning a plane, like a lot of things, is more about deciding to do it than anything else. I'm not rich.



'Splain please.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 04:57 PM

What he means by that is "It's just a matter of deciding to throw the spare $100,000 that everyone has lying around at an airplane."

Rich (The Compass) 641 12
02/19/2002 04:57 PM

I guess he means, if you decide that buying yourself a Massive Networking Coleridge is important, you save up your money and you buy it.

You don't have to be Donald Trump to do so.

Of course, compared to like 70% of the people in the world Ford is in fact fabulously rich, but so are most of us here.

SU(T) 1,768 12
02/19/2002 04:58 PM

that's what I thought.



Somehow, I don't think someone who owns a 'plane can be poor.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 04:59 PM

Ownign an airplane is just about the only thing I am somewhat envious of Ford for.



Someday I will own a C-172. Oh yes, I will.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 05:01 PM

So if one isn't rich, one is poor?



Why is it black and white? Owning a plane is no harder than paying for a couple years of a good school. It's the difference between a 2 or a 3 bedroom house.



I haven't checked, but I would be willing to bet private planes are even cheaper since Sept. 11th.

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 05:01 PM

I mean that if you can come up with 10% of 26,500 USD and afford a $250.00 a month payment plus the maintenance, fuel, insurance, and tiedown or hangaring expenses, you can afford an airplane. If flying was as important to most people as it is to me, a very healthy segment of the US population would have aircraft.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 05:08 PM

>Of course, compared to like 70% of the people in the world Ford is in fact fabulously rich,



70% ????



Most of the homeless people in the U.S. are wealthier than 90% of the people in the world.



Anyone on GAB is probably in at least the top 2 or 3 percentile world-side. the fact that you're rich enough to own a computer and an Internet connection makes that true.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 05:08 PM

world-side?



world-wide

SU(T) 1,768 12
02/19/2002 05:11 PM

Nutbutter, I wasn't thinking in those terms of black or white. I suspect "most" people are in the middle income bracket - somewhere between rich and poor; "comfortable."



Ford, you're "I'm not rich" comment is relative. I would say, from my perspective that someone who owns a house, an expensive sports car, a plane and probably several other 'big ticket' ticket items (e.g. computers) is indeed rich. You have alluded to your rather large salary here many times so it's disingenous of you to get uppity about challenging your statements on (relative) wealth.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 05:13 PM

Since you share in the love and warmth of a womderful man, I think you're far richer than any of us, Mr. SU(T).

Lupe the Groupie 9 11
02/19/2002 05:13 PM

What's wrong with being white and successful? This didn't happen by accident, you know. It took work. Though I would hardly consider myself rich, I know I'm better off than a lot of people. Would the world be better if everyone made $20,000 a year? That sounds like communism.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 05:21 PM

Take a country like the U.S. Out per capita GDP is (as of 1998) is USD $29,605. (Canada's is USD $23,582)



That's an average. Anyone in the US with any basic life skills can land a minimum wage job, $6/hour X 40 hour work week is about $12,000/year.



Compare that to a country like Sierra Leone or Ethipoia where the per capita GDP is USD $458 and $574 respectively.



$458 a year? That's like 4 days wages for a typical American and 10 days wages for a person for whom the law will not allow them to be paid less.



We may not all be white here, but we're all rich.



You look at Ford's airplane and think he's a rish bastard, but the $1.2 billion people who supposedly live on less than $1/day look at your shoes and roof and your more than 3 meals a week and think you're a rich bastard.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 05:21 PM

>What's wrong with being white and successful?



Jealousy.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 05:22 PM

Yeah, Squeamish, but in Sierra Leone you can buy Walkmans and Cafe Latte really cheap.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 05:26 PM

No, those numbers are based on "Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) exchange rate" which takes into account local purchasing power.



The actual, unadjusted numbers are much lower.

Candie Kohrne el Gato Montes 8,640 15
02/19/2002 05:29 PM

$1.2 billion people



Heeheehee.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 05:30 PM

Whoops.



Just got used to sticking $ in front of all the numbers.

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 05:38 PM

>Culture doens't build things, money does



Funny. I thought people built things. I could put a dollar bill on the ground and it wouldn't build jack Shakespeare.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 05:39 PM

Wrong.



You'd build a crowd of black people fighting over a dollar.

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 05:45 PM

I know for a fact I make less than some others here. As to what I do make, I just spend it on different things than most people.



Everybody compares their wealth against a standard I guess. In November of 1997 I made $35,500 USD a year. I spent years in commercial jets a few times a week and went through the belly of Hell itself as far as I'm concerned, to get to a position where I can at least call some of the shots about how much I will make and who I will work for. I even started a business to try to take stronger personal control of that.



I went through that hell instead of dedicating myself to more esoteric and intellectual pursuits because my particular passions cost money. And partly I did it because I'm very competitive-- but I'm only interested in competing with myself. Career success is a really good way to do that. It's just a game to me. I never had fantasies about being wealthy or priveleged. Just that I would one day have seen and done everything I could.



Most people I meet don't know I have a plane and I try like hell to avoid bringing it up. And the first date with Sherry I hid my car and didn't let her see it. Other people may judge me by those toys, but I don't measure myself by them, and I try hard to keep people from making an assessment of what they think of me on factors I don't think are important.



As far as I'm concerned personal wealth is no way to judge a person, even if I joke about it. I come from a family with proud, intelligent, yet relatively poor people in it and it keeps me real.

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 05:45 PM

Unless you're in Nutbutter's living room, where you'd just get one white redneck fighting himself for it.

postbear 10,158 13
02/19/2002 05:57 PM

"it's a tough job, but somebody's got to run everything."



it's also fun when people here claim to be important power-brokers when they are truly just cogs in the machine.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 05:59 PM

>Funny. I thought people built things.



People build things for money.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 05:59 PM

We can't all have important jobs like tending bar.

SU(T) 1,768 12
02/19/2002 06:06 PM

Since you share in the love and warmth of a womderful man, I think you're far richer than any of us, Mr. SU(T).



Yeah.





Just don't tell DR.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:07 PM

>it's also fun when people here claim to be important power-brokers when they are truly just cogs in the machine.



* begins counting all the "power-brokers" who aren't white males *



(3 seconds later)



* finishes counting all the "power-brokers" who aren't white males *

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 06:08 PM

What about Bill Cosby?

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 06:08 PM

>People build things for money



The first house was built to make money? Not shelter?



The first shrine was built to make money?



The first boat was made in order to make money? Not get across the river?



I don't buy it.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:09 PM

He was getting too uppity so me and the rest of The Council(tm) had his kid rubbed out to teach him a lesson.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:10 PM

Note: "The Council" consists of mainly of just me and the big wigs of the pudding industry.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:12 PM

>The first house

>The first shrine

>The first boat



None of those were built to make money. that's why they don't exist anymore, they were replaced by newer, better boats, houses and shrines that make money.

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 06:16 PM

People still create houses (out of cardboard if necessary) merely for shelter. They don't make money from that.



You're still wrong. Many shrines still exist: go visit Rome sometime. The Pantheon makes no money. It's a reminder of the Roman culture.

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 06:17 PM

People still make rafts to cross rivers and make no money from the act.

postbear 10,158 13
02/19/2002 06:19 PM

it is entertaining watching you people attach yourselves to ideas and behaviour to which you contribute in only the smallest of ways. "rah rah capitalism and the triumphs of the protestant work ethic" sounds very amusing when parroted by a bunch of zeroes who would be happy doing whatever they were told as long as they get to brag about it on a message board and inflate their own self-worth.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:21 PM

>People still create houses (out of cardboard if necessary) merely for shelter. They don't make money from that.



True, but those people aren't the ones that build cities like Rome, etc.



>Many shrines still exist:



Yes, but not the first one. Te rest were built with money gained through capitalism. The Pantheon was not free. Even slave labor cost money.



>The Pantheon makes no money. It's a reminder of the Roman culture.



The Pantheon makes tons of money. Tourism is one of Rome's biggest (if not Rome's biggest) industries.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:22 PM

>People still make rafts to cross rivers and make no money from the act.



True. People also make rafts and sell them for money.



What is your point?

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 06:22 PM

So what are you doing that is so important, Postbear?



Besides posting on an internet message board and telling everyone what big losers they are?

17,446 13
02/19/2002 06:24 PM

Postbear Hates: All things American, white people, rich people, straight people, basically anyone who doesn't agree with his closeminded opinions.



Postbear Likes: Drinking piss.















Nuff said.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 06:25 PM

Hmmmmm. When you put it that way it all makes perfect sense.

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 06:26 PM

You said, "People build things for money."



I'm saying, "Not necessarily."



I have given examples. Your statement is a fallacy.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:27 PM

"Consider the source" is the most useful rule of thumb since "Let the buyer beware."

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:28 PM

Just because some people build thing for free doesn't mean "People build things for moey" is a fallacy.



Would you prefer "People build great and worthwhile things for money?"

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:31 PM

How about "Money is either the reason for or the means to building great and worthwhile things?"

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 06:31 PM

I can point out tons of examples of pointless, useless things built for money.

1bigdork 7,825 12
02/19/2002 06:33 PM

So far we know that Mr. Prefect is throwin' gang signs and is "keeping it real".



If he keeps slipping up, he is going to have trouble passing.

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 06:34 PM

>The first shrine

>that's why they don't exist anymore



To follow up on this point, how do you know it no longer exists? Do you know where it is? Stonehenge is one of the oldest recognized shrines, and it still exists.

postbear 10,158 13
02/19/2002 06:35 PM

if you are so attached to your convictions, mr./ms. anonymous, then come out of hiding. you may not agree with me, but at least i have the balls to post under my name. until you can do the same, you and your posts are irrelevant.



nutbuster -- as i've asked before, why do you think i believe everything i point out here? i just think you pompous bloatbags need a reality check once in a while. and i hate the tired old "we must be right, everyone here agrees" attitude that pops up on occasion. though i am relatively wealthy (and may be about to have a significant pay raise), i feel that other viewpoints are needed before you all congratulate yourselves to death.

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:37 PM

If nobody knows about it, it's not really a shrine, is it?



What's so gret about a shrine anyway? What did Stonehenge ever do for anybody other than make money from tourists and set up a car wreck joke in "European Vacation?"

38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:40 PM

though i am relatively wealthy



Assuming the going rate for a blowjob is $25, he's a millionaire



(and may be about to have a significant pay raise)



They're going to quit paying him in bar napkins.

Nutbutter 181,255 35
02/19/2002 06:41 PM

Why do you think we belive everything we point out here?



I mean, Squamish does, but he doesn't count. I sure as hell don't belive everything I post.

The Dirty Vicar 17,446 13
02/19/2002 06:43 PM

Could I just take a moment to say that I live in the midwest?

Squeamish 38,986 14
02/19/2002 06:43 PM

I believe everything I post here, and i only post the truth.



* punches wife on the way out the door to Klan meeting *

Special Olympic Peon 6,076 13
02/19/2002 06:45 PM

Ask Hawkwind.

postbear 10,158 13
02/19/2002 06:47 PM

sad imp would be a more fitting title.

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 06:56 PM

Actually, the Parthenon Athens was not only the temple, but the place where the rich people kept their gold. There's never been a time in Western civilization where weath and power were seperated by much, whether the construct was religion or the very first democracies more than 2,000 years ago.



The primary business of all societies is surviving. The engine that drives that survival is production... always was, even when it just meant crops and bronze weapons and tools. It was the trade of these things-- say, crops for tools, that built the first cities. And most of what we've added since then is complexity, but not the fundamental reasons to have cities.

Feeble, Master of Spline Curves 32,400 15
02/19/2002 07:10 PM

I think the Pathenon was the civic center more than the religious one.



I think that capitalism sucks, until you compare it to every other system ever tried, at which point it's pure genius. Railing against capitalism is like complaining about friction.

Ford Prefect 5,475 13
02/19/2002 07:17 PM

Nuh uh, it was the temple of Athena. Pretty important bitch in Athens.

Bust 'Em Up Rodriguez 17,826 13
02/19/2002 07:18 PM

Go live in China. Then complain about capitalism.