Barking Pumpkin 19,242 12
06/20/2002 10:29 PM

Haven't a clue. I brought down the UWE system today though with my crappy code.



A programmer is me!

Mix Masta' Microcube 13,428 12
06/20/2002 10:40 PM

ask d8uv.



he's sure to know.

Lindsey 988 13
06/20/2002 10:40 PM

I think the monthly sponsor should get to design the board.



Bring on the animated gifs of the bouncing-boob girls.

Barking Pumpkin 19,242 12
06/20/2002 10:43 PM

If we had boobs here, squeamish would post twice as much.

Barking Pumpkin 19,242 12
06/20/2002 10:43 PM

Oh wait. We do have boobs here. Me & Stuby.

King Moo Moo 828 10
06/20/2002 10:46 PM

Does anyone know if the margin-top property is supposed to work in IE? I'm calling it via an external stylesheet like this:



What about this:





.bbg{font-family: bouncing boob girls}



Glad to help.

sockk 4,060 0
06/20/2002 10:47 PM

OHHHHHH!!!! I CAN'T WAIT FOR ALL THE GREAT THINGS THAT GAB 4.0 SHOULD BRING!!!!!

Merkin 10,008 13
06/20/2002 10:53 PM

margin-top isn't valid for fonts, only for a body (or style box).



So if you're trying to add a buffer above certain text, use the margin-top property in a div surrounding the text.



I'm not sure about browser compatibility.



RTFM

Merkin 10,008 13
06/20/2002 11:18 PM

*cough*



Hey, Hargrave - any progress?

John Hargrave 128,742 73
06/20/2002 11:23 PM

Will try this. Thanks, Merkin.

d8uv's head 3,011 13
06/20/2002 11:58 PM

I am the Self-Proclaimed CSS Guru of GAB.



And, Merkin is correct. Way to fill in for me.

dinesh 24,862 16
06/20/2002 11:59 PM

CSS is explained fully in the movie "Johnny Dangerously".



You want to hump her brains out. Ba-boom ba-boom ba-boom!

Vlad Tepes: Jester of Darkness 19,599 12
06/21/2002 12:06 AM

Oddly, Vlad's never heard of CSS. And Vlad now has a Bachelor's of Science in Computer Science. Vlad feels out of the loop.

Mix Masta' Microcube 13,428 12
06/21/2002 12:07 AM

...I wonder why...

d8uv's head 3,011 13
06/21/2002 12:09 AM

CSS has been around for a while now. It stands for 'Cascading Style Sheets', and is used to seperate the style of a page from the content of the page.



A virtual godsend for web designers.

d8uv's head 3,011 13
06/21/2002 12:12 AM

Oh yeah... Frost backwards compatibility. The only three browsers you should ever design for are Mozilla 1.0, the incompetent IE 6, and Lynx 2.8.3.

Fronzel Neekburm 15,959 13
06/21/2002 12:34 AM

I'm losing my faith in you people.





Fdisk

Vlad the Impaler 19,599 12
06/21/2002 01:24 AM

...I wonder why...



Probably because Vlad was too busy doing real programming in languages like C and C++, Java and Assembly to know what some simple web page scripting function is.

Crickette 2,472 12
06/21/2002 09:42 AM

Considering what we've seen of Vlad's web design skills, perhaps it is better that he stick to non-web programming.

Merkin 10,008 13
06/21/2002 09:57 AM

Vlad, I discovered the same thing after I left my undergrad CSci program. We learned a lot about programing and hardware, but nothing about technologies that were actually being used in "real-life." Poo.



And re: compatibility, especially for the web, the best way to go is for the *majority* of web users, not the latest release of each browser. IE6 is fun, but most web surfers are using IE5 or IE5.5 - anyone checking their server logs can see that.



You are right about Lynx, tho!! Too many webmasters forget that even though text-based browsing accounts for about %1 of web traffic, Lynx really keeps web designers honest with their markup.

John Hargrave 128,742 73
06/21/2002 11:07 AM

Merkin has correct. Majority rule has long been one of our fundamental design philosophies, which I hope to throw out the door completely with GAB 4.0, which will be completely Flash-based.



Kidding.

John Hargrave 128,742 73
06/21/2002 11:08 AM

<action>meant to say "Merkin IS correct"

Professor Nutbutter 181,255 35
06/21/2002 11:08 AM

Codeslave says he's gonna make his board VRML. Can you top that?

John Hargrave 128,742 73
06/24/2002 09:31 PM

OK, I have tried Merkin's suggestion. Finally got the DIV to work in Internet Explorer, after years of effort, only to find that it looks horrible in Netscape.



Any other ideas?

Candie Kohrne, Pet Psychic 8,640 15
06/24/2002 09:39 PM

Try <span>.

Candie Kohrne, Pet Psychic 8,640 15
06/24/2002 09:39 PM

With </span>, of course.

John Hargrave 128,742 73
06/24/2002 09:53 PM

Well, span is what I was using before div, and it didn't work either.



I think I've found an inelegant solution that just puts clear spacer GIFs between lines. It's the only way I can find to make it work in both browsers.



Freaking CSS.

Merkin 10,008 13
06/24/2002 10:06 PM

Ack! Spacer GIFs!

d8uv is a 'Heytah'. 3,011 13
06/24/2002 10:29 PM

*ahem*



Frost browser compatibility. It's an idiotic thing to try and design Shakespeare for old things. It's the user's fault for using bad browsers, not your fault for designing for current technology.

Oh yeah, always design with W3C standards in mind.



Also, John, Everything looks like Shakespeare in Netscape.

d8uv is a 'Heytah'. 3,011 13
06/24/2002 10:31 PM

Like I said, if it looks good in IE 6, Mozilla 1.0, and Lynx, it's all good.

Fronzel Neekburm 15,959 13
06/24/2002 10:40 PM

This is just another sneaky way to start a Counter Strike thread, isn't it?

Ded_Freex 2,863 12
06/24/2002 10:42 PM

Whatever happened to Unreal Tournament threads ?

Merkin 10,008 13
06/24/2002 11:01 PM

"It's the user's fault for using bad browsers, not your fault for designing for current technology."



And what's up with the AM radio band? That sucks. And diesel gas? What the hell? And VCRs? Jesus, get with the times.



d8uv, you're awesome, but that's the most ignorant statement you've ever made. Yes, your arguement is valid for tech geeks - BUT, the fact remains, it is not REALITY. Majority rules, unfortunately; and the majority is not IE6.

Candie Kohrne, Pet Psychic 8,640 15
06/25/2002 12:03 AM

d8uv, your attitude is not going to win you any web designer positions.

Candie Kohrne, Pet Psychic 8,640 15
06/25/2002 12:09 AM

Cuurent stats for a major international software company's website (Connectix.com):



Netscape 5.0 - 24.02%

Netscape 4.79 - 8.26%

Netscape 7.0b1 - 6.52%

Netscape 4.7 - 4.66%

Netscape 6.2.1 - 5.7%

Netscape 6.2.3 - 5.41%

Netscape 6.2.2 - 5.87%



Explorer 6.0 - 34.64%

Explorer 5.5 - 15.21%

Explorer 5.14 - 17.92%

Explorer 5.0 - 18.52%

Explorer 5.01 - 5.85%



Macintosh PowerPC - 35.85%

Windows 2000 - 19.97%

Windows ME - 7.56%

Candie Kohrne, Pet Psychic 8,640 15
06/25/2002 12:12 AM

Overall:

Microsoft Internet Explorer - 88.07%

Netscape Navigator - 7.92%

Netscape Compatible - 1.41%

Others - 1.26%

OmniWeb - 1.31%

WebTV - 0%

Lynx - 0%



Less than one percent on Lynx, d8uv. 25 visitors in one week out of 83,580 unique visitors.

Ded_Freex 2,863 12
06/25/2002 12:15 AM

Game over, d8 loses

















































AGAIN

Yip Bonk Toad 3,028 13
06/25/2002 12:22 AM

From what I've seen, the Internet average is 80% IE, 10% AOL (which is IE anyhow), 7% Netscape.



For some reason my idiot users are 15% Netscape. I h8 Netscape.

Yip Bonk Toad 3,028 13
06/25/2002 12:24 AM

I don't even see Lynx on my report. And yet I see Lotus Notes 4.5?

Merkin 10,008 13
06/25/2002 12:24 AM

As I said above, I agree about Lynx. It's no secret that Lynx users make up a fraction of a percentage of web users. But Lynx is important to use for good site development. Lynx is the absolute lowest common denominator in browsing software. Its nongraphical rendering really forces designers to think about navigation, usability, and content.



See webpagesthatsuck.com

Fronzel Neekburm 15,959 13
06/25/2002 12:30 AM

I guess d8uv lost his Vs looking like an idiot saving throw.

Yip Bonk Toad 3,028 13
06/25/2002 12:39 AM

Blind people use Lynx.

Merkin 10,008 13
06/25/2002 01:08 AM

Blind people use whatever they want, as long as they have JAWS screen-reader installed.



This I know.



Search Yahoo: "section 508"



It's all dependent on good/valid HTML, though. And so, we come full circle.

Fronzel Neekburm 15,959 13
06/25/2002 01:13 AM

Apparently, they don't use flash



Makes me plan on gouging my eyes out.

Candie Kohrne, Pet Psychic 8,640 15
06/25/2002 02:00 AM

LINK FOR JOHN: CSS Master Compatibility Chart

Dirk Lately 14,001 13
06/25/2002 02:16 AM

If John changes GAB, I swear I'm leaving.







I mean it!

Frog with Migraine 8 10
06/25/2002 02:38 AM

ey, John d00d, margin-top is used for elements within the page body. You can't use it for BODY.



Oh, and don't use <SPAN>, it is pure evil.



If you're trying to put in some space withing a <TD> use style="padding:2px;"

d8uv is a 'Heytah'. 3,011 13
06/25/2002 04:37 AM

Yeah, I know. I just got 0nwz0rd. Whatever. I will now attempt to weakly defend my stupid position.



"Yes, your arguement is valid for tech geeks - BUT, the fact remains, it is not REALITY. Majority rules, unfortunately; and the majority is not IE6."

Let it be noted that IE6 is the second least competent browser. The absolute least competent browser in Netscape 4. I simply refuse to work with Netscape 4. If stuff looks like Shakespeare in NN4, it's not my fault. Everything looks like Shakespeare in NN4.

Let it also be noted that Mozilla 1.0 is the best browser ever made. Period.



"Cuurent stats for a major international software company's website (Connectix.com): Netscape 5.0 - 24.02%"

I Frost-ing hate it when people confuse Nutscrape with Mozilla. Netscape has always turned out to be an incompatible buggy POS, and Mozilla is a virtual godsend to the internet.



"... the Internet average is 80% IE, 10% AOL (which is IE anyhow), 7% Netscape."

And this depresses me so much.



"As I said above, I agree about Lynx. It's no secret that Lynx users make up a fraction of a percentage of web users. But Lynx is important to use for good site development. Lynx is the absolute lowest common denominator in browsing software. Its nongraphical rendering really forces designers to think about navigation, usability, and content."

YES! I totally agree. Since I only design for the most current versions of IE and Mozilla, It's bound to look good in virtually all modern browsers. All the changes from IE5 to IE6 were adding bugs. Adding Lynx in there makes sure that my sites are at least usable in EVERY browser.



And now, I will go into the corner of my choosing, crawl into the fetal position, and weep.

Frog with Migraine 8 10
06/25/2002 08:25 AM

OK, take out an atlas, and look to the right of Antarctica. There, you'll see a tiny island composed entirely of dead whales piled up on each other, surrounded by driftwood.



That's where all the Lynx users in the world live.



And they don't come to sites like these, they go to sites like furnitureporn.com



May I suggest testing in Mozilla?

John Hargrave 128,742 73
06/25/2002 10:26 AM

Thank you Candie for the first HELPFUL link I have found on CSS.



Frog, I am trying to avoid making unnecessary tables, which is why the TD trick won't work. And SPAN is usually a much more helpful tag than DIV (though neither of them are working here).



We have always been committed to making things look good in both IE and Netscape and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, despite d8uv's advice.

SalsaShark: Breakfast of Ex-Champions 6,518 11
06/25/2002 10:28 AM

you should probably put some quotes around that last word, johnny.

Fronzel Neekburm 15,959 13
06/25/2002 01:43 PM

This is a great link

Chickens 286,208 61
06/25/2002 05:58 PM

Maybe you should check the air in the tires?

Candie Kohrne, Pet Psychic 8,640 15
06/25/2002 06:22 PM

I simply refuse to work with Netscape 4.



Then good luck finding work.



My employer insists I make everything work in Netscape 4.7. Mac and PC.



And it's no good trying to get work on your own with that attitude. Let me quote from an email I got just this week from one of my clients of my private business:

Can you adjust sponsor page and coupons (banner ad is OK) to look OK in

Netscape 4? I know this sounds like an unreasonable request but we still

have a significant # of visitors using this browser. Stats from last 30

days:

Internet Explorer 6.x 40.65%

Internet Explorer 5.x 31.71%

Netscape 4.x 27.10%

Netscape 6.x 0.27%

Internet Explorer 4.x 0.27%



I use Netscape 4.07 for testing. You can get it at:

http://browsers.evolt.org/index.cfm/dir/navigator/16bit/

Candie Kohrne, Pet Psychic 8,640 15
06/25/2002 06:43 PM

By the way, this is a kickass resource for browsers. I'm even downloading Lynx out of curiosity.

Merkin 10,008 13
06/25/2002 07:05 PM

Candie, one of the other good reasons for developing for Netscape (or Mozilla, or Opera, etc) is that if your site looks good there, it *will* look good in IE. IE corrects poorly written HTML, so if you're only designing for IE, you won't catch any potential mistakes.

Arthur Gonzerelli 20,522 17
06/25/2002 07:05 PM

WOW! I haven't used Lynx in a long time. This is pretty damn nifty.



ZUG isn't too bad in it, either.

Arthur Gonzerelli 20,522 17
06/25/2002 07:08 PM

Lynx is a text-only browser, but it's forms-capable, and it's suprisingly easy to use.

Here's a tip: Download one of the pre-compiled versions, or you're just going to get pissed.



Info is available at (no, seriously) fdisk.com

Candie Kohrne, Pet Psychic 8,640 15
06/25/2002 07:12 PM

Merkin, that is absolutely correct. I've never had anything that looked right in Netscape 4x not look right in IE.

Sleestack 30,342 13
06/25/2002 07:13 PM

There's another text-base browser out there called links (clever name, that) that comes with RedHat 7.3. It works much like Lynx but handles tables.

Merkin 10,008 13
06/25/2002 10:40 PM

"links" is cool - also has mouse support, so you can click on text links instead of navigating to them via the arrows.

d8uv 3,011 13
07/27/2002 06:20 AM

Guess what? I'm getting a web developer position because of my position!



You see, even though NS4 isn't the best way to see my design, it still is fully functional. In fact, it is usable in all browsers. Some look better than others. You must accept this.

My main catch when selling this is that this design will save you money. The template with large comments and tons of text info is still less than 5 kb. Something that cannot be said with table-driven formats. Since it is 5 kb, it saves money with bandwidth and storage charges. Also, since it is very easy to work with, it saves time for the developer. Less hours working = less money given to the developer.



I'd take a good look on this page if I were you. This one is also well.

Candie Kohrne, Complexis superioso 8,640 15
07/27/2002 03:41 PM

Thanks for the links, d8uv. I've started reading them.